In the land of the firearms, knifes kill more than guns

Oddly, in the U.S. the early 1900's were relatively calm, with the homicide rate roughly 1/5 of today's level, which isdown from the late 70's and early 80's when it was about double current rate. Hopefully this trend downward would improve, but the last couple of years have ticked up.

While it would be easy to point out that the violence seems to stay within ethnic groups, further research indicates it more closely related to economic status and outlook as evidenced by the integration of these groups over the past 100 years and holds true today. (I point this last part out, due to "certain" groups in the U.S. and abroad that use Finland's gun ownership and homicide rate to make a case for the problem being "ethnic".)

I sincerely hope this is NOT the intention.

The problem, as I see it, is that we have romanticized our past. Just look at our president. Strutting around in flight gear and gloating mission accomplished. THAT is the mindset that is the well spring of our attitudes.

Gwenny, I too am a female that owns and carries a gun and belongs to the NRA, so you're not alone on here. I do have a question though, if the problem is the mind set and your point (if I'm understanding you correctly) is that Americans see themselves as romanticized cowboys etc. then why is it that most homicides occur in very populated areas where most of the individuals committing the crimes have never even seen a country western film, seen a livestock, or heard of dirty harry? If I did understand the point you were trying to make then I must disagree and say that is not the reason. I do agree it is the mindset and attitudes of Americans that cause this high number, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the Cowboys and Indians past America holds. I believe economics has a lot to do with it, I think education has a lot to do with it, and I generally believe that many of us think because we are Americans we have the right to kill someone who has done us wrong or has more than us because of the two previous things. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct in these beliefs, but I do think they have a lot to do with it.

As I see this, and I did NOT originate this idea, the romantic "wild west" idea of individuality and violent reactions to slights and taking the law into ones own hands is deeply ingrained in us and manifests in many aspects of our culture. Remember Die Hard? What does he say? "Yippie-kay-yay, motherf***er." And the bad guy calls him cowboy, as I recall. A kid didn't have to ever see a western to recognize that recklessness in the cause of good and killing the bad guy is RIGHT and how heroes behave and was somehow related to being a "cowboy" and being a cowboy is to be a good American. These elements trace back to the westerns of the late 50s and 60s . . .Clint Eastwood and his ilk . . . but are common throughout all action films featuring a trouble hero or anti-hero.

Then you couple this with the fact that many of us with long roots in the N American continent . .ie, tracing back to the first settlers . . .already have a propensity to be risk takers.

Although you make a valid point with Die Hard and I'm assuming the media in general, you are assuming all homicides in America are being committed by Americans. This isn't true. Many are illegals. As far as American kids watching films such as Die hard 1-80 this brings up a point I failed to bring up in my previous posting... Parenting. We have more single mothers and fathers in America then almost any country. When you couple the lack of parenting, economic status, "American Rights", and many other things, you're sipping on a fatal cocktail.
While the romanticized old days may influence some, it most certainly isn't the reason/feeling for all to kill. I think naming one specific thing for the motivation of thousands is dangerously false. The old days aren't touched on nearly as much as they were years ago in school, sure there are western movies out and even movies that bring the western feel into the picture I highly doubt a 15 year old crip gang member is thinking even subconsciously "yippee Kay-yay mother efer" probably more like "I've got my mind on my money and my money on my mind" when he shoot some lady for her purse. I grew up in a very small town where we did watch country western films and wore wranglers and would round up the cattle, but we never had a murder. I think if we did go back to the old days many would have a greater respect for the gun and wouldn't see Smith and Wesson or Remington as murder weapons but rather a tool to get food or put a dieing animal out of misery.

Many are illegals

I need some numbers on this. Please provide links to data that supports your assertion that significant amounts of violence in the US is caused by illegals. By significant, I mean in excess of their representation in society as a whole. For instance, while persons of African American heritage represent 12.8% of the US population, they commit 39.3%¹ of the murders and are victims nearly 50% of the time². (91% of black victims were killed by black murderers, just fyi.) You will need to show that more than 4% of the crime being committed in the US is done so by illegals.

While the romanticized old days may influence some, it most certainly isn't the reason/feeling for all to kill.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. I have NOT saying it is a REASON people have for killing, I am saying that the underlying societal influence of the glorified cowboy stories what manifest as action films in our pop culture predisposes Americans to violence when under stress.

I can't give you a number that represents more than 4% because I didn't say most or significant amounts of the violence comes from illegals, I said many. Although this link doesn't give exact number, that I remember, it is interesting to read. FindArticles - Border town violence: as illegal immigrants flood the United States, a wave of crimes committed by illegals is crashing into border towns and threatening to engulf our entire nationNew American, The, August 7, 2006, by R. Cort Kirkwood
I did know about African American statistics and I'm not saying illegals kill more than anyone else I was simply making a point that not everyone who uses guns to kill is predisposed to glorified cowboy stories. There are many societal influences other than cowboy stories that manifest in pop culture. Columbine itself was accredited to Marylin Manson and Rob Zombie, neither of which mention anything about the old days, but rather a deep rooted dark hatred for a fellow human being. My point is simply there can't be only one thing that predisposes Americans to violence. The LAPD accredits gangster rap to much of the gang warfare. (I have a cousin who works for the LAPD) You'll have to forgive me, reason was the wrong word, I think I had an idea of what you were trying to say. I'm not saying you are entirely wrong, but rather you are missing some other components to the problem.

I'm sorry you are unable to understand what I am saying and that you rely so heavy on what the media says instead of checking stuff out yourself. I draw the line at three exchanges when there is an obvious inability of the other person to hear what I am saying. Thanks for your contributions. This discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think we are the best at communicating with eachother and will have to agree to disagree.

In America, owning a gun is considered to be a sacred right. Sacred. Our entertainments pay homage to the gun. It doesn't have to be dirty harry or a western, it can be nearly any movie release or Prime Time TV show. The crapfest "24", for instance, doesn't just glorify violence it's a lascivious celebration of violence.

When one has a gun one is a "big man"; and an even bigger man if he (or she) uses it in the face of danger. One is admired if they've destroyed an evil or an opponent with a gun. Movies and some news accounts reinforce this. It's the "big stick" that says speaks to the wise "don't mess with me". It's sexy, quiet confidence: I have the power and the ability to use it.

There's a deep cultural psychological attachment to, and fascination with, the gun. An instrument of death. What else could happen in such a culture where the psyche is so insecure that it craves weaponry?

That most gun violence is carried out by illegals? B.S. Maybe in certain parts of LA but to extrapolate from there to the rest of the country is asinine.

I think it's really mindset. Americans still see themselves as cowboys . . . pioneers on a dangerous frontier. Our self view hasn't really grown up.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is why my kids do not play with toy guns. I love guns and hunting, but guns are for sport, not for killing humans.

I must admit though, *sigh* ..........I have a carry permit. Mostly for the ease of transport between my house and the range.

I have a carry permit. Mostly for the ease of transport between my house and the range.

Don't know why you feel you have to confess. This is awesome. You follow the law and you are a responsible gun owner. I have no guns right now. I sold my last weapon 20ish years ago to get gas money to get away from an abusive husband and have just had not reason to replace them as I seldom go shooting. But I totally support both recreational shooting and hunting.

I guess I'm just worried to admit such things here on the vine.

Glad to see that you sold them rather than used them.

Gun rights. What a subject.

To begin with, God Bless our second amendment and our Bill of Rights. I have often engaged in discussions concerning our right to bear arms and this is a very deep subject. My conversations usually end like this: I respect those that choose not to own a firearm. And I respect those that do.

The bad rap on guns are those who use them to commit crimes. There are over 80 million firearms owners in the United States and over 300 million firearms. As a gun owner who decided long ago to arm myself for self-defense, target practice, and hunting, I support background checks, waiting periods, and tough sentencing laws for criminals who use a gun to commit a crime. And I oppose just about everything else as wholesale attempts at gun control.

The US Supreme Court is considering a landmark case that will determine State Rights concerning gun control in Heller -VS- D.C. A decision is expected this month.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338282,00.html

America doesn't consider itself to be the wild west. And Hollywood doesn't echo the 2nd amendment, in fact hollywood only serves to give guns a bad rap.

The Natural Right of Self Defense (John Locke) is the idea that any person has a right to defend themselves from great bodily harm which might result in death (or rape) with deadly force. That idea was prevalent in the minds of our founding fathers when the Bill of Rights was ratified. And bestows great responsibility upon American citizens.

I could go on forever on this subject. But I'll end it here by saying "Thank God I live in a country where freedom extends to my individual right to bear arms".

Alaskagirls view;

I do agree it is the mindset and attitudes of Americans that cause this high number, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the Cowboys and Indians past America holds. I believe economics has a lot to do with it, I think education has a lot to do with it

Excellent viewpoint alaska. I would add that most homicides in America occur in cities, are committed by gang members whose average life span is 20 years and 5 months, gangs that listen to lyrics produced by the hollywood elite to "shoot cops", "blast a cap in a N-(word)", and further advocates the rape of women. Combined with a crack cocaine habit, that is violence waiting to happen.

I actually don't think our cowboy mindset has much to do with gun violence in the US - I think that mindset has more to do with our foreign policy. Gwenny, we agree that it's kind of silly to blame illegals for crime. To me, and this seems simplistic, but I'd just argue that lots of violence centers on the drug war. You can't make a hostile merger, so people die from stupid turf wars. But I don't think people in inner cities kill each other b/c of that way of thinking.

As a gun owner who decided long ago to arm myself for self-defense, target practice, and hunting, I support background checks, waiting periods, and tough sentencing laws for criminals who use a gun to commit a crime.

That is , of course, an entirely legitimate stance. I'd add that shooting guns is just fun, although it could get expensive. But I'd support harsh sentencing for criminals who use any weapon to commit a crime, dependent on the crime.

I'd add that shooting guns is just fun, although it could get expensive.

And fixing to get a whole lot more expensive if bullet and brass casing serialization laws are passed.

TacitusAndronicus,
ONCE AGAIN..... I never said most crime comes from illegals, I said many. I do not blame our nations corrupt behavior on illegals, I was merely making a point that you can not say everyone has the same mind set because there are different cultures and backgrounds that play in. Especially when you are talking about America which is a huge melting pot.

Many:
consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number. Websters Dictionary.

Before we go any further, you are new. Something you should know is that I am one of the strongest, and maybe the only female, voices FOR the second amendment and private gun ownership on Newsvine. I joined the NRA when I was 12. Now, you were saying?

And my statement stands. The reason America has problems with guns is our attitude. Your statement actually supports my statements. What, exactly, is the fundamental difference between a cowboy/pioneer and a man who brags he's a firefighter, mine operator, hunter and shooter?

What, exactly. is the fundamental difference between a cowboy/pioneer and a woman who brags that she is one of the strongest, and maybe the only female, voices FOR the second amendment and private gun ownership on Newsvine and that she joined the NRA when I was 12?

Rhetorical question.

You are assuming bragging when the man was possibly only proving relevant context.

I am an arrogant and mostly self-satisfied middle aged survivor. There is NO difference between me and any other braggart in the world. You just proved my point. LOL

Gwenny, Your cowboy argument doesn't wash. I have never encountered a gang member dressed up like John Wayne carrying a six-shooter.

Gangs, violent rap lyrics, drugs and guns don't mix. Plain and simple.

Pioneers are usually associated with exploring new territory. There isn't much of that left.
Cowboys are ranchhands and bullriders.

In the American mind, the US was settled by these risk takers. I think a case could be make that everything you list about yourself shows you to be a risk taker and really no different from them. :D

And I agree with your statement that our problems with guns are our attitudes. We have gone way wrong with the entitlement attitude and the lack of personal responsibility.

::nods:: Where we run into problems is where the romantic version of the pioneer and cowboy replaces the reality that these were hardworking folks who did not take risks lightly.

I'm at work sitting at the front desk. That means frequent interruptions to answer the phone, talk to folks who walk in and handle various issues. It does not contribute to the most well thought out and executed posts sometimes. :D

Oh, and BTW-I think everyone should join the NRA!

AMen to that Bud! Voted up and friend request sent!

Glad to know ya!

The way it was meant to be in god's country!

nice to learn that NRA let people of any age in. I didn't know that. I'm a life member.

LET? I was enrolled through my school in the hunter's safety course. One of the most valuable bits of education I ever got in public school. I might be life time as well. Don't really care, though, as I think they have gone over the edge like Green Peace, which I also used to belong to.

You know, you have to wonder about a woman who was simultaneously NRA, Green Peace, anti-war and fighting for the ERA.

Gwenny--

you have to wonder about a woman who was simultaneously NRA, Green Peace, anti-war and fighting for the ERA.

I don't 'wonder', I am in awe. Good to know that there are free-thinking women (and men) on the 'vine. Thanks.

Pasi--I find that amazing that self-defense is not a legitimate reason for obtaining a pistol permit. How can any government treat its citizens like that.

Tell me, Pasi, do you elect your government?? If you do, is it a free election wherein those elected are responsible only to the voters, or are the elected people responsible to the government??

RETLAW,

I think it's the "demonization" of firearms that has pushed countries like Finland, Australia, UK, Canada, etc etc away from the Natural Law of the Right of Self Defense. One person goes nuts and kills 20 people with a gun and the "gun" is blamed. In any society criminal elements will exist, and crazy people will kill, wether it be by knife, strangulation, bludgeoning, gun, poison, etc etc. The role of Government isn't to "Punish the majority due to random acts of a miniscule minority". Rather it is to defend the rights of the majority and punish criminals. But that isn't happening. Using a gun in a crime should be a federal offense with mandatory life in prison. Shooting someone in commission of a crime that should carry a mandatory death sentence. But this will never happen in places that appease criminal behavior. Many places in America are falling into this trap. I am 99.9% positive the US Supreme Court will rule against the D.C. handgun ban as unconstitutional based on the right of self defense. I can only pray.

Bill,

One person goes nuts and kills 20 people with a gun and the "gun" is blamed

Of course the gun is going to be implicated as it should be. To use your example - the gun made killing 20 people a highly efficient enterprise. Say, if the person went crazy and all they could get hold of was a golf club they might only bludgeon one person to death, if any, before coming to their senses or being subdued.

To ignore the role and type of tweapon in these circumstances is nothing short of foolish.

The home defense thing I can understand but I'd really like to know how many times a gun has prevented a home invasion vs. how many home invasions have taken place over a specific time period. I'm thinking we would likely be in the single digits.

Tacticus asks;

So would I. The problem is self-defense stories don't make the evening news and get buried on page 17 in newspapers. But Gun Violence is thrust "in our faces" by the media every time it occurs.

I found this on the web. It is dated. But the information is available if you're willing to look. And the problem with that is most folks don't take the time, relying on media input.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

Another excellent source is the NRA website. I'm sure they have access to a broader data base.

http://www.nra.org

To ignore the role and type of tweapon in these circumstances is nothing short of foolish.

And if the Japanese guy used a gun instead of a knife to kill 7 people gun control advocates would be all over this story. So where are the knife control advocates? Lets register knives and conduct background checks on people who buy knives. Truth is no-one cares about demonizing knives.
A clear double standard.

But as a father of two boys, I think that playing with toy guns is in little boys nature - wanted or not.

BOYS! HA! Me and my daughter whooped my sons butt at Duck Hunt.

I guess it is OK, but I don't want my kids aiming guns at each other. Guns were my favorite toy as a child, but after I deployed to Africa and Middle East I realized how innate it is to for children to play about things they want to do when they grew up.

I played with guns pretending to be one of the guys in the Dirty Dozen or Kelly's Heroes and lo and behold I joined the military. My kids will not be taught to glorify killing like I was as a child.
No toy guns, no bloody video games!
It is just something I feel strongly about for my family. Do what you will.

Although I do teach my children how to use real guns. My daughter got her first Daisy Red Rider last Christmas, just like I did twenty something years ago. My son will inherit the Red Rider when my daughter moves on to her Ruger 10/22 in a couple of years. And the cycle will continue until they are old enough to choose the rifle or handgun of their choice.

Although I do teach my children how to use real guns. My daughter got her first Daisy Red Rider last Christmas, just like I did twenty something years ago. My son will inherit the Red Rider when my daughter moves on to her Ruger 10/22 in a couple of years. And the cycle will continue until they are old enough to choose the rifle or handgun of their choice.

Well stated arbitrary. Your actions are a hallmark of responsibility in teaching children the difference between toy guns and real guns. And to instill a respect for real guns that will carry them into adulthood. I did the same thing with my 2 children who are now in college.

In Finland, of course, guns have also caused horrifying damage.

I forgot. People don't kill people. Guns do. And Knives. And hands. And rocks. And ropes. And bullets (don't forget the bullets). And tanks. And RPG's. and etc etc etc

I know. But it's hard to do a real effective school stabbing. Or, a school rock-ing. Guns are more effective. I was just saying - gun-crime has happened there too.

I admit guns are easier to kill people with. If tomorrow all guns suddenly vaporized, pneumatically operated "knife sweepers" that spit out 30 blades per second would fill the vacuum in mans primal urge to be a more effective killer.

Jesus, man. You got some crazy motherf uckers. I wasn't aware of that incident. But yes, human beings will always want to find the best way to exterminate people. Guns aren't the reason for our high crime rate. BTW, why is Finland more gun-friendly then Sweden, Denmark? Is Finland more rural?